Huzza got back to my own post, (had to get Firefox bit of a forum bug with IE) and got some interesting opinons and info.

One thing about the buyout I find kinda hard to swallow is that its enough money to just about rebuild the ENTIRE American infrastructure. When I can't even get my county to fill a pothole at the end of my street.

Its about $2,500 from every man, woman and child. (excluding illegal immigration ofcourse)

I know its a free market and the "you win some and you lose some" mentality should be the case.

But the leadership of these companies is almost criminal. I don't think its possible but I would like to see charges brought upon the heads of the colapsing market. Its not like the banks were new commers to the scene, some of them were over a centry old. Very well established business models to boot.

Unbelivebly there is a moral to the story, but I don't think anyone will learn.

I agree that we may have to many contractors (way to many bad eggs for sure) and in my area, (Texas gulf coast) contractors have been building homes for 40-50k and selling them for over 100k. But they have alot of people working and are a fuel for our economy here.

I've read and heard a few different versions of "this number." My favorite is from the Comedy Central News Hour, and, IIRC, the practical meaning is about 2,000 fast-food hot apple pies. The harder parts of the question have to do with the immediate use value of whatever it is that is exchanged for the hot apple pies and the future use value of both that mysterious "whatever" and a given lot of hot apple pies.

I like pie.

I have to, its just alot of money anyother way, the pies make it more palatable.

Fueling the economy by overselling at 100% markup to people that can't afford them doesn't actually fuel the economy.

You have five bucks, you buy something with it, and sell it to some sucker for six, then he sells it to someone for seven, and so on and so forth.  You haven't actually created any wealth at the end of it, regardless of how high the price goes before the guy holding it can't find another seller.  We're literally running off a thirty year economic boom in the housing sector that flat doesn't exist, they've just been selling each other the same products for continually higher prices.

Its a sad truth. 

Town in my area (Lumberton Texas) has had by far the fastest growth now than in the past 30 years. I work for a plumbing company sub-contracted to do the work on the homes for new neighborhoods being built there. And they are working at the pace of a new home getting completed every 3 days. Homes are vacant for less than a week, and some are sold even before getting built. We have almost filled one neighborhood that has roughly 1,000 homes and slated for underground work on homes in a new subdivison before the sewer system for the divison is even finished and inspected.

This of course came from the expansions announced by the local refineries, that could actualy fall through. And when Ike made landfall SOMEHOW Lumberton recived very little damage. They didn't even lose power for very long. Sooooooo builders are using that miracle to sell more homes. 

I'm scared to think about the lending practices getting put into place.

Gotta remember, this is a housing issue. Your average house costs nearly $300,000. Even a cheap house is gonna be $100,000. It's an enormous purchase compared to pretty much everything else an individual buys.

Or to put it this way: It takes 120 people (men, women, and children) paying $2,500 to pay for a single average house.

Sadly, this is true, and this is what's really causing the collapse: Eventually, you reach the point where people can't afford it, and the whole thing starts to collapse like a house of cards. With housing, it gets worse: The reduced value of a foreclosed home causes the homes around it to devalue, and starts a downward spiral in the entire neighborhood. That can easily mean a loss of several million dollars in a single neighborhood.

One has to keep in mind that those prices are insanely inflated by prices on the coasts and major cities, which have always been ridiculous. Here in the midwest, even at the peak of the bubble you could get a fixer-upper for 60k or less, and a very nice house for 150k. My dad just built his a few years ago for about that, and IIRC it was about 1500sqft plus basement, which he then finished himself.

Bottom line--if you can't afford to live somewhere, maybe you should consider moving.

The vote will pass and the bailout will occur very soon.

If the rationale for the bailout is that AIG is too big to let fail, then a solution may be that any company that must be rescued by the tax payor should be broken into parts much as ATT was.  This will prevent having to ever bail out this company again due to its size and penalize big time the existing management who's income is tied predominately to the company's performance.  All stock options for executives should be forfeited in the event of a government bailout.

No, it's a credit problem that's based on an excessive national expectation about how fancy all of our lives should be. Housing is just the sector where things got bad enough first.

The US does not save money to speak of and an increasingly large share of "investment" has gone into the financial equivalent of vaporware. Your credit card debt could also easily be part of one of these "opaque financial intruments." Then there are the risks to the commercial paper market that could conceivably interrupt payrolls at businesses of all sizes--late paychecks mean late payments, which often mean higher interest rates that make future payments even harder to make, etc., etc.

I agree that the notion of an "average home price" is ludicrous nationally, and not even that much help locally. My county has areas that fit what Kryo describes, but we also have swathes of over-priced McMansions and a ludicrous supply of "luxury condos" with more being built as I type.

But I strongly disagree with the notion of moving as a "solution." That attitude is no small part of why the housing prices rose so insanely in the "hot" markets. It's also what has eroded our civic involvement nation-wide since the 1950s. We need *more* commitment to our local communities, not less. The nation is supposed to be a collection of communities, but it is fast becoming a collection of rootless people with no real loyalty to much more than a set of flashy symbols and slogans.

in historic economic tems, i've heard of the three levels/phases of money vs. VALUE vs. ECONOMIC PLATEAUS

1.  the barter system, which was hard to counterfeit because it was a fair trade, which often meant that precious metals, such as gold, silver, and utilitarian metails, such as tin and copper were also traded. now, until the 'TALLY STICK" system came along, the border between actual good and promissory note became blurred.  however, the tally stick system lasted almost 800 years.  in this time, there was NO INFLATION. the value of everything was almost a 1:1 ratio.  people lived in their means.
   
2.  the paper money system, which was easier to counterfeit, becuase not only did it become a "PROMISSORY NOTE", it also became the paper with which bankers documented the transactions.  hence, the term, "FRACTIONAL BANKING"... for those who dont  know, WAMU is the master of FRACTIONAL BANKING.  look where it is as of 9-29-08. in 1973, it was considred the economic watershed year... why? INFLATION ROSE GLOBALLY in that same year. what else happened in 1973? OIL EMBARGO. THE AMAZING THING TODAY IS IF THERE IS LITTLE OIL LEFT ON THE WORLD, WHY DONT WE PUT GAS IN THE CARS EVERY OTHER DAY LIKE 1973?
3. the credit system, which is very easy to couterfeit... look at the following new PHRASES since the CREDIT BOOM: IDENTITY THEFT, the credit firms with the CREDIT REPORTS, HACKING, DIEBOLD, HACKING DIEBOLD, how many times in the news recently have people seen that companies are getting hacked, losing millions and millions of records related to PERSONAL AND FINANCIAL?  INFLATION is totally what it means... INFLATE THE EGO and everything falls into place.

now, im not saying money is bad. historically, every agricultural society has used money, from the mayans, to the aztecs, the ancient egyptians, the mesopotamians, the babylonians, the sumerians, the chinese...

HOWEVER, and this is the best part for you, the fans of SINS OF A SOLAR EMPIRE! the mayans had many calendars.  their solar calendar, their agricultural calendar, simply, was based off a two cycle calendar approach. one was 260 days. one was 360 days. the day of the calendar that these two cycles met at became the topic of the day. the interesting thing was that every 360 days, there would be a mass celebration in the nation.  for five days, everything in the mayan civilization would stop functioning.  as a law, all debts were paid and reset back to ZERO.  there was never any guarantee for any one in the mayan civilization to become long living and prosperous because of religious beliefs, but as far as a chance to return to a starting point and rebuild (without the $700B price tag) is amazing. as humans, we are all given the ability to bounce back from any hardship. the issue is do you listen to the innate abilities or do you listen to the babble from the outside world?

so, in closing, bullet points

• do cycles of time exist? yes, the mayans believe so, as in evidence with the seasons of the year
• do cycles of economic hardship and prosperity exist? absolutely, bernanke and paulson and everybody else point that out.
• does a downturn in the economy happen? absolutely... because the economy is a material representation of the confidence and attitude/moral of a people
• do we need money? absolutely... because it is a means to provide goods and services easiear and faster
• are the laws fair? who knows anymore... it is certainly a devisive factor

to tell the truth, im not sure what will happen in the future.  civilizations come and go.  just like thoughts and one night stands... it looks good in the beginning, but the longer it stays after the party, the more you just want to move on

Death to the bailout!  Maybe we live to fight another day?

My friends, we have a problem. This problem is not the government, not the economy, not the foreign trade. It is people. People who give out loans despite bad credit. People who use credit beyond what they can pay. People expecting the government to provide for them instead of simply protecting them.

If you wish to solve the economic problem get rid of the people. That however is unacceptable and undoable, We will see an economic depression, but let us not blame the power of the government nor the financial services. For the blame first lies with us. Who asked for the loans? Who created the credit risk? Was it not the everyday consumer?

I agree something needs to be done, but whatever is done will take time. We will see far worse economic colaspe before this is over.

Some thing that no one seams to know is that there WAS government regulation slash over sight for these companies but they were complacent to there duties 

What we should be looking in to is why the regulator were so incompetent in there over site. Their there for a reason to keep this sort of thing from happing 

  As to Spartan’s story  I am sorry for your loss (As I have lost a cousin to suicide as well although under different circumstances) but don’t just blame the republics. In fact president Bush last year tried to get more oversight for Fannie and Freddie (who in my opinion should never have existed ) but was blocked by both Rep and Dim. So neither is insistent

one more thing, good insurances is not demanded we all make are own choices  

On the capital gains tax if you what to raise it fine but know this, every it is raised income from this tax drops why? Well because the wealthy can wait  two, three, five years tells it is lowered again (or find some other tax shelter)  And what happens when it is lowered? can any one guess, why yes revenue from it rises 

You if you want it to be “fair” fine go ahead raise it but it will mean nothing, It will only to make you feel better nothing more 

Now if you want a “fair” tax system then try a consumption tax (and as with the currant system -food and maybe medical)